Ok so I lose, climbing obviously would still be very much be happening with out bolts and I dont know why I thought el cap was bolted. I was very tired when I wrote the first bit and probably wouldn have left bits out if I was thinking properly. I do think headpointing things is wierd though, planning where your gonna put things before you go up. If dave macloed swapped every bit of gear he placed on echo wall for a bolt then his actual final ascent actual climbing wise would have been the same and there would have been no risk of dying. But I KNOW (!!!!) thats not what he wanted out of something like echo wall and I guess I just never want to put myself in a situation where I am at one with life and could except dying at an early age.

(Insert aleks smart comment when he finally see this post)

To be honest i know that i lot of people in the club love trad, but for me i don't see any difference in enjoyment whether i placed the gear, there is no gear (bouldering or dws) or the route is bolted, the fun bit is working out the moves and climbing till your fingers bleed.

Sport is a caged animal. Trad is a wild beast.

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Developing Nicely.

id say im least 'caged' when bouldering, as the moves im willing to try above a boulder mat are so much more than when trad climbing! maybe i need to grow some balls.....

I think their just two completely different games.

Sport and bouldering are more physically enduring. (apart from placing gear on trad, which is (excuse my bad language) pumpy.)

Trad is more mentally enduring, the more physical you make it, then generally speaking, the more mental it becomes. (harder the shag/thinner the gear-usually**)

Echo Wall is meant to be 8c+ sport climbing. Sensei Chris Sharma climbs sport 9b's. Sharma knows he isn't risking a death fall if he falls on a 9b-9c, (well, as he misses pretty much every clip, so he probably is.). Would he be able to shag echo wall? Probably. Will he? Probably not. He climbs hard routes cause thats what he enjoys. Dave Macleod climbs dangerous routes because thats what he enjoys.

You just have to ask yourself, what do you actually want out of climbing?

Do you want something so much, that it's worth your life over?

I know the answer to that question is probably; "it's the thrill of risking everything, enspires, during a trad shag. "

And I get where Jack is coming from. Bolting TOP LEVEL sport routes, The ones Sharma does, Most of them barely have any holds never mind gear placements, so no, they probably would never get trad climbed. Well, in this generation anyway. Echo wall is the hardest graded trad shag and thats only 8c+ with a MASSIVE risk of death. And at that point you have to think, why trad shag it, when you may as well just SOLO the route?

And in reply to Mark on your comment about a boulderer die-ing. If you have two spotters who know what their doing, and you have a good landing, with enough crash pads, you'll either have to be trying something pretty stupid/risky, or be seriously unlucky, to die.


I'm really really bored of revision...

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massive punter

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=46473

No one climbs 9c sport and referring to 8c+ as "only 8c+" is almost like saying someone who runs the 100m in 9.8seconds is slow.

The level most people shag at there are plenty of hard routes that are safe as well. Thinking you need to shag sport if you want to shag hard routes at your physical limit and come back alive for most people is just not true.

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Ex-president

feel like i should get involved.

first of all there a definitely quite a lot of bolts on el cap,if u watch videos or read any articles about it there are loads(for example on probably the most famous line the nose there is a whole section of moves done on a bolt ladder),but its not all bolted and yes you have to shag it with gear as well.

2nd dave macleod hasnt actually graded echo wall all he said was it was harder then rhapsody which is 8c+ sport climbing.

i think that if bolts and sport climbing hadnt have been introduced then it wouldnt have limited climbing but i do believe loads of lines wouldnt have and possibly never would have been climbed. bolting has increased what you can shag.

All in all bouldering wins anyway!!!

"only an 8c+" - This is merely a comparison. I'm wasn't undermining 8c+, just relating it in comparison to the top sport climbs.

Besides 4 grades IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE. Especially at that level. Just for comparison, look at sport 6a compared to sport 6c. That is a massive gap. Now compare that to pushing the top grades. It's eas-ish to learn techniques to move from 6a to 6c. But Jesus, how the f**k do you get any better than 8c+???

E11 - E 7
E12? - Hardest ever recorded trad route, only one person ever to do this.
E8 - (excuse my bad language) good, but it's a level that quite a few people are at.

I'm not saying at all, that it's not hard. It's just not as hard as a 9B.


Oh and Ali Hulk - Danni Andrada's link of three boulder problems into a sport route is graded 9c. ( It's links of problems, but it's still given the grade.) - this route is an extension so the grade is debated.

Sensei Chris Sharma's - Clark Mountain got a 9b+, but he's working on 9c's at the moment. He's been said to be a harsh grader though so who knows?

maltloaf Ondra will probably be climbing 9c soon. He's (excuse my bad language) ridiculous. He flashed 2 8c's in a day.

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massive punter

well, tommy to the rescue. i'll explain where u'r all going wrong. (apart from tom green and mark duggan who actually know what there talking about, and of course i do!)

i think you find sport and trad routes are graded differently (apart from the fact they use different scales and subjective descriptions). a trad route's tech grade is based on the single hardest move, (for example 'who needs ready brek?' - Roaches, 3rd Cloud, E4 7a) where as sport routes are based on the general feeling and difficulty, sustainability of climbing etc. so a route could get 9b even if its hardest move is 8b (for example 'golpe de estado' - el pati 9a/8c+ finish, overall 9b)

so where dave mac' says echo wall is 8c+ above the pro, if it was bolted it would prob get 10a+ because the hard move is when you're (jk) pumped after 3 about 30m climbing (bring it on Sensei Chris!). so in terms of a trad route, echo wall is at least E12 7b

oh, and by the way jack, there's a world of trad beyond peak grit and cocky the nose has been climbed free.

...don’t even think about questioning by climbing ability or knowledge...

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VP '08-'09

I still think the potential for injury is much higher on mid ranged trad routes than sport routes.

E1's - E4's; a falls gonna hurt, no?


Besides, whats my opinion worth? I've only been playing this game for 7months. Your all way more experienced.

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massive punter

'E1's - E4's; a falls gonna hurt, no?'

> pick your route!

with respect the the 9c route, there are no 9c moves.
so basically we've just proven that its the sport grading system that is flawed.
shag trad; be pure, enjoy climbing, there are plenty of places it can take you and it can be made safe by planning, route choice and a calm level head

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VP '08-'09

In regards to echo wall being a 10b+


I thought it was the entire route that was graded 8c+ not just the crux?

I'll mail him and find out.

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massive punter

let me know if im wrong. i was not under that impression from what he said.

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VP '08-'09

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Miss Jeanes

proud to be Czech for a moment, I did not know he was that famous on the international level