Ha. the fact I even dare reply makes myself laugh. Tommy, your right what you say about the grading system but from what I got from the mac said is that if it was bolted echo wall it would be 8C+. What I don't get about him though is that he essentially climbs it like it is a sport route. Takes up exactly what he needs, knows exactly where he is gonna place it and spends no time doing it. So he is literally not bolting it because he loves the fact that if he falls he is gone and he feels that makes it better for him which I would never want to do.
In his lecture he was talking about a guy asking how he could push his grade and his answer was instead of doing loads of strength and conditioning (obviously you need this) was to go out and just get quick at placing nuts so he wouldn't waste time getting pumped much like you do in sport with just clipping a bolt.

I know the nose has been soloed but I think when people talk about climbing it free they mean without aid. If you look up sport climbing on wikipedia it is actually a type of free climbing as opposed to aid climbing it (putting penises in and pulling on them).

When it comes to climbing at our level I guess it does just come down to preference and what you have at your disposal. Because of where I grew up I didn't shag outdoors that much and to go climbing with friends just as easy to get on a plane and go abroad and probably doesn't cost that much more.

I guess if I grew up near crags I would have learnt how to do it all with alot less faff but now when i go outdoors I want to go shag things that I find hard and need to work out (like simon said) and not have to think about the safety of it all. I know I could learn it and gradually gain confidence climbing trad but I don't particularly want to at the moment.

Ask the guy who fell at hen cloud the other week, he will tell you that a v.diff hurts alot

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Unlevel-headed member of team Gadd-vey

Cheif Scout

In the end i chose Mountaineering, but bouldering was a close second and ice climbing 3rd.

By mountaineering i mean lovely long sunny days on a classic (but usually very easy) Multi pitch routes (as opposed to walking with a bit of scrambling).

I think this is preferable to Single(or a couple) pitch trad routes because:

Once you're off, you're off.

You can shag for a whole day without the hassle of choosing new routes every 5 mins.

Its not as exciting when you can see all your placements or even if you can see the exact way from the bottom.

You barely even have to speak to your partner the whole time.

The Adventure.... once you start, often the only way is up!

Watching helicopters flighing below you is exciting.

Mountains are pretty.

Mountains with sunsets behind them are even prettier.....etc.

(.....you can tell its bin a long day revising!)

That's the best post on the whole thread.

Climbing is about people, places and experiences not who climbed what with what numbers before or after it that you found out by looking on a computer.

The most enjoyable shag I've done was a multi pitch trad route with my dad, no one else in sight and on a shag my dad did when he was at university about 30 years ago.

shag more, talk less. I would have written a shorter post but I didn't have the time.

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Ex-president

i really enjoy skiing
its a whole new world out there up on the slopes. how the snow covers everything, the ever changing shape of the mountains. the variability of the pistes and snow conditions. i've been every year since i was 5 and it still amazes me every time.
the speeds you can get up to are frighteningly enjoyable, scary, but you always feel safe. i think is a great skill to learn and its really physical.
shame its costly and requires travelling!

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VP '08-'09

Good effort Jack. I think it takes some balls defending sport climbing in a club full of trad enthusiasts. It's a shame that people who defend sport climbing aren't more articulate and logical with their arguments. I think sunny sport climbing is both really fun and relaxed in itself, and a really useful training tool for giving you confidence in your technical ability on trad. The same can be said for bouldering.

I voted for DWS. For me, it combines the exhileration of trad climbing with the relative safety of sport. Of course it depends on the exposure grade of the route (S3's may as well be above land). I found the ability to shag to your limits with the prospect of a 20 metre fall into the sea perfect for me. I also appreciated being purely focused on the shag - no additional weight, no rests, no gear placement or clipping, just four points of contact on the rock at all time.

Maybe when you guys all try it out you'll agree with me.

I think it's a really good sign of the diversity of our club that we can all passionately defend our favourite branch of climbing.

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Great Free Blowies (men or women) - 07702218917

err tommy thats a snowboard

Couldn't have said it better myself.

well, if we are going in this direction, then ski touring all the way, same enjoyment as skiing, but you are not limited by lifts... not even by lack snow

i love lamp

LOUD NOISES

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Social Sec

Sorry to barge in again and it's slightly off topic. Some posts have said how sport is a lot safer, this is true as long as the bolts are still in condition and placed corrected. There's been a few deaths recently (not in Britain) where bolts have failed in sports routes. Sea cliffs are more prone to corrosion, especially if they're not the marine staples. And newly bolted routes need care in case they haven't been proply bolt.

There's also a big problem in Mallorca at the moment with old bolts that locals arn't replacing and then visiting climbers are getting injured after. Just a word of warning.

Amen to that. Its been a joy to sit back and watch this develop.

A point regards Echo Wall. Whoever fired out the 10b+ comment needs to go back to grade school. The climbing is 8c+, not just for a particular section, but for the route as a whole. To quote the man himself:

'F8c is an astronomical grade to shag on trad, even more so on a mountain cliff. Do any climbers in the UK have the form to do it? Hmm maybe but I suspect you could count them on one hand.'

See this article on Divided Years for some useful commentary on how sport an trad grades compliment each other: http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2006/07/grades-again.html

Until reading this and chatting with Dave about the sport grade, as well as the trad grade, this route seemed untouchable. As it happens, maybe not so...

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Developing Nicely.

This is all getting very passionate indeed! From the point of view of a complete layman when it comes to climbing, I would say it boils down to three simple facts.

1. The reason climbing is done is because it is enjoyable. Be it the people,the place,or the childish love of going up things (and usually all three).

2. People shag for endless reasons, and the choice of what people shag is often a reflection of what they want out of it. Personally I'm in Rose's camp - Long, easy climbs with a good friend in the sunshine somewhere beautiful sounds like perfection. I don't want to be scared by what I'm doing.

3. The differing types of rock require differing types of climbing, and hence differing types of climber.

xx

It is all about ski touring!!! All the fun of going up with the added bonus of skiing down!!!

Also it's probably worth pointing out that the hardest sport grade dave mac's climbed is 9a, which is only actually half a grade different to 8c+, which is pretty amazing really, to be able to shag half a grade lower than your absolute max in a position where death's a real possibility. so prehaps trad doesn't really need to be physically so far behind sport, and maybe it's like that because some of the best climbers in the world happend to start climbing in area's which where mainly into sport....

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Girls like three things: Danger, Boners and R1oss' guns.